Hold the Phone my friends, and read this: The Structure of Scientific Evolutions.
This editorial/article/discussion/piece discusses two Darwinist explanations of God and religion. Basically they both come down to "People created religion" it's just the question of how it happened which is argued, and whether God was involved or a byproduct. I'm not sure I agree entirely with either camp, or any of this, but it definitely makes me think about it, which I always love. And now I'm about to get a little bit geeky, because I'm going to go back to the Thor comic book by Marvel and do a little cross quotation. (And yes, this is an example of how eclectic I can be--God, science, and The Mighty Thor all in the same post!)
When they relauched the Thor title with J. Michael Straczynski at the helm, this was the premise for Thor's return from the grave (or the void, if you prefer):
"It is not for the gods to decide whether or not man exists--It is for man to decide whether or not the gods exist."
And when I read it, it blew my mind wide open. Because I'm kind of a geek who loves a good thought provoking comic book read, and because there is too much truth in that statement for it to be ignored.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm a good catholic girl. I was raised with a tradition of faith, and I adhere to it, for the most part. But I was never bound by it, either. Let's just say I like to ask the hard questions, and I'd never make it as a nun or anything, but I think God and I get along just fine.
Let me throw a quote at you from this article, and you tell me how disturbingly parallel it is:
"God may or may not have shaped biological and cultural evolution (just by establishing an initial algorithm), but these processes have definitely shaped Him. The evolution of the human brain led to religion, and our ideas about God have subsequently changed in concert with cultural progress. On the whole, despite history's ups and downs, God has become more peaceful, more beneficent, and more compatible with a scientific understanding of the world."
And one more, because I know you're digesting--this is from the other scientist, criticizing the first quotation, based on the fact that religion served a moral and social purpose of banding people together and introducing a "hostility" toward those not sharing those beliefs:
"So in very early human societies, groups with strong religious behavior would have prevailed over less cohesive adversaries. We are descended from the religious groups, the argument goes, and that is why everyone harbors a religious instinct."
I dunno, guys. This sounds like the age old question we all hate because it's so cliche but impossible to answer.
So, you tell me, which came first-- the Chicken or the Egg? and while we're at it, is J. Michael Straczynski right, too? Is it our purpose to decide that the gods exist, and not the other way around?

written by Jennifer, October 30, 2009
written by UberWench, October 30, 2009
Language is imperfect. I tend to think that one day we'll find the divine, and describe it in glorious, perfect mathematical formulae.
But, I'm with you -- the science/religion thing is a false dichotomy -- it doesn't have to be either/or.
written by Dmitri, October 30, 2009
If the believers themselves are not as powerful, in the case of the gods Thor becomes powerful because people believe in him. It was, as you mentioned, the premise for his return from the dead.
Belief in unity, nationalism, or a government makes nations strong. Look at the major nations of WWII.
Belief in yourself (confidence) is a staple of Western (especially American) society. Heroes (Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Indiana Jones, etc) and real people (Dale Carnegie, Mark Twain) that had a solid competence mixed with confidence are the core of the American Dream of being able to do anything that you put your mind to, regardless of your circumstances.
written by Gescaro, November 03, 2009
Or, to say it another way, I think "believing" happens (and happened) when we actually sense something that is real, amazing, deep and undeniable, and yet difficult to sense. We KNOW what we sensed -- it's that powerful. And because its that powerful, we believe that its there to be sensed again. It's just not that easy to sense again.
So we try to repeat the circumstances in which we experienced this numinous, ephemeral thing, hoping that will do the trick. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it works for you, but not for me, and you become a spiritual leader and I become a follower, hoping to experience what you so beautifully describe.
God is our flawed attempt to describe the numinous. Religion is our flawed attempt to codify the way to experience the numinous. Neither our flawed definition nor our flawed codification define the limits of the numinous, nor give credence to those who claim it doesn't exist. It just means we are not very good at communicating.
And, perhaps, by now you'll conclude that I am not very good at communicating. Sigh. Maybe it was better saying it in one sentence.
written by Gescaro, November 03, 2009
Any over-reliance on a (or a set of) primary sense(s) can undermine the development of those that are either less well-developed or inherently marginal (because what they sense is "rare" or at the margins of perceptibility). I argue that it's easy to believe that fire burns, because it's easy to experience. It's hard to believe that power can be harvested from the divine forces of the universe because it's hard to experience.
But if you experience the full color of daylight in a world full of people who only come out at night...
written by Gescaro, November 04, 2009
That is a bunch of bullshit.
Maybe God of the patriarchal religions has become more peaceable. But if you start back before the de-femininization of God, you'll find a pretty peaceful, understanding, and loving God who acted simply and compassionately. We went over the precipice into hell with the Patriarchal religions. When Mom was God, God wasn't an inexecrable, detestable, vindictive monster.
From the perspective of "science", holistic world-views were generally not cartesian/reductionist, but that doesn't make them any less scientific.
When we got more reductionist (starting with Thales, Aristotle, and the whole Greek cabal), things got A LOT worse. And I would argue that it didn't get better until well into the 20th century. Even the "enlightenment philosophers" couldn't swing the pendulum back. It was only with (Gosh...could it be?) the re-emergence of reverence for Mother Earth (hippies, Earth Day, respect for the philosophies of primal, native peoples) that the broad cultural understanding of God (not the eggheads' understanding of God) became more peaceful, more beneficent, and more compatible with a scientific understanding of the world." That time period also coincided with the emergence of chaos theory, complexity theory, the understanding of the "spooky action at a distance" of quantum particles, and a generally more everything-is-inextricably-linked-to-everything-else scientific world-view.
Frankly, it's the "...scientific understanding of the world" that has evolved to be more compatible with God, not the other way around.
OK. Can you tell that guy hit a nerve?
written by UberWench, November 04, 2009
I have a great story about how students at my private Presbyterian Liberal Arts college reacted to a talk by a Catholic nun who suggested that perhaps God did not have a gender as we know it (citing examples of motherly imagery applied to God in the scriptures). It was quite impressive, actually, how knee-jerk *enraged* some people became. I found it a little surprising how much importance some people seemed to place on God's plumbing, especially the fellas.


Comic Books, Evolution, and God
Religion as effect of cohesiveness: This I buy. Anthropology demonstrates pretty conclusively that all societies have rituals, speech, etc., to distinguish insiders from outsiders.
To me, it's obvious that a society's God reflects that society. People who herd sheep imagine God as a shepherd. People who sail imagine God as a lighthouse. Or, in the words of the great philosopher G'Kar (